讨论:肘巴里

你知道吗？

肘巴里曾于2021年8月1日通过新条目推荐投票，登上维基百科首页的“你知道吗？”栏位。

维基百科

本条目有内容译自英语维基百科页面“Jjokbari”（原作者列于其历史记录页）。

此条目为第十九次动员令大动员令的作品之一，是一篇达标条目。

此条目亦有完成第十九次动员令之改善工程，提升了条目的质量。

翻译修改请求

I'm really sorry to write in English here, but I wanted to ask fellow wikipedians to make a correction for this word. If you interested in the literal meaning of this word jjok-bari, please find this discussion at English Wikipedia, anti-Japanese sentiment. Some of the points I made there:

Anyone with basic understanding of Chinese, Japanese Kanji or Korean Hanja can tell that 足 means foot/feet.
Translating "足-발 (jok-bal)" to "豚足" or "pig's feet" is accurate, since the word refers to a "pig's feet dish".
(though its literal translation would be "足-足" or "pedi-foot".)
Translating "쪽-발 (jjok-bal)" to "豚足" or "pig's feet" is inaccurate, since "쪽 (jjok)" has its own meaning and doesn't have matching Hanja. It's more than just adding extra "j" to "jok-bal". In fact, "jjok (쪽)" alone is a commonly used word which means "page". (i.e. page 161 or 161 jjok)
In any case, neither "jok (足)" nor "jjok" clearly has nothing to do with pigs (豚).
I cannot emphasize enough that "Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors."

非常感谢。PBJT (Talk) --- PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年5月10日 (四) 15:41 (UTC)[回复]

恕我孤陋寡闻，中文似乎没有“瓣脚”一词，请问是甚么意思？--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月26日 (二) 00:21 (UTC)[回复]

我支持移回原作者使用的名称“Jjokbari”，因为现有的翻译若非基于原创，就是错译。—Iokseng（留言） 2012年6月26日 (二) 13:13 (UTC)[回复]

英文维基确实将之译为猪脚，不赞成因一人反对而回退。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月26日 (二) 14:17 (UTC)[回复]

瓣脚 is my translation in Chinese. (I don't speak Chinese, and can understand only with google translation.) Feel free to correct my edit, if it don't make sense. But what I'm trying to explain is jjok is NOT same as jok (足), and jjok in Korean means a piece or page. (second syllable bal in both words means feet(足) in Korean.)

Sure, a pig feet dish is called en:Jokbal in Korea, and it sounds very similar to this racial slur. Please do not assume, however, that jjok-bal comes from jok-bal and please do not translate the term as 猪脚.

I found this error in English wiki first and explained/corrected the error. Hope Chinese wiki could have a accurate translation as well. 感谢! --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月27日 (三) 12:03 (UTC)[回复]

从上面的讨论应可知“猪脚”是个误译，而移动条目者似乎在对此不清楚的情形下就做了移动，因此建议在有更适当的中译出现之前，移回原作者使用的标题“Jjokbari”。—Iokseng（留言） 2012年6月27日 (三) 14:25 (UTC)[回复]

请看这里[1]以作参考--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 07:49 (UTC)[回复]

Yes, you can find some google search which say jjok-bari comes from jok-bal or 猪脚. That doesn't mean that the search result is accurate. In English wiki, this word was included in December 2005, almost seven years ago! Chinese wiki article was created in January 2011, and from the structure of the article it looks like it's a translation from English wiki.

Below is another points I made in English wiki: en-wiki talk

The "pig's feet" expression was added on 29 December 2005 version by User:Ryoske without any citation.
In a separate page specifically dedicated to this racial slur, User: CaliforniaAliBaba created the document on 9 May 2007 with the following sentence:

... Jjokbari is generally accepted as literally meaning "pig's foot" (jjok being pig, bal being foot). ...

User:CaliforniaAliBaba mistakenly assumed that "jjok" means "a pig" in Korean, which is wrong.
The Standard Korean dictionary by Korean language institute shows the origin of word as "≒짜-개-발(jja-gae-bal)" or "split feet".

--PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:31 (UTC)[回复]

Why should we believe in your interpretation over other references, I think that is the question.骂人的说话，或多或少都要有侮辱成分。翻译为猪脚其实颇贴切，请看图[2][3]。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:04 (UTC)[回复]

For better or worse, it is a Korean vocabulary. And when you want to know the definition of the word, dictionary would be the best source. (and a reliable source, too.) The standard Korean dictionary explains the word that:

일본 사람을 낮잡아 이르는 말. 엄지발가락과 나머지 발가락들을 가르는 게다를 신는다는 데서 온 말이다. ≒짜개발
(in translation) derogatory slur for Japanese people. When wearing tabis, it splits the thumb toe and other toes. derived from split-hoof like feet or 짜개발

Please note that link for the dictionary doesn't work directly. You have to type keyword "쪽발이" to see the definition. ::Although wikitionary isn't a WP:RS, please allow me to provide it as a explanatory purpose.

jjok (or 쪽) [4]: means 页 or 块儿.
bal (or 발) [5]: means 脚 or 足.
jok (or 족, 足) [6]: is the Korean hanja pronunciation for 足.
Both jok (Korean hanja word) and bal(native Korean word) means the same thing, feet. Neither one has a meaning of 豚 or pig.
jjok isn't a different rendering of jok (single j/ㅈ or double jj/ㅉ)

Once again Sorry that I keep writing in English. 感谢!

--PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:31 (UTC)[回复]

"split-hoof like feet" 直译为“裂蹄似的脚”，用来骂人多别扭，“猪脚”已经形神具似，况且这称呼亦有媒体使用。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:37 (UTC)[回复]

Let me highlight something:

"Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors."

If you think 猪脚 is correct, then you need to show that your sources are WP:RS even more than the vocabulary's dictionary definition. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:53 (UTC)[回复]

参考：[7][8]--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:59 (UTC)[回复]

RiceRice, I understand your concern. This was the exactly same question that I have to dealt with in English wiki when I raised this question: "My claim is WP:OR". Please note, however, that this isn't my personal opinion. I'm trying to explain the Korean language dictionary's definition of this word. Like I showed above, many people mistakenly assumed that the word means pig's feet, <jjok being pig, bal being foot>, when they contributed to Wikipedia.

And you know what? I'm repeating exactly same argument here in Chinese wiki. No, "split-hoof like feet" doesn't necessary mean pig's feet or 猪脚: many animals have 蹄 [9], and pig isn't the only animal with 蹄. You don't translate 蹄 to 猪脚, do you? --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:44 (UTC)[回复]

“猪脚”与“猪蹄”某程度上是通用的，最主要是“猪脚”已有媒体采用。猪狗不如，在中国是骂人的说话；马到成功、壮建如牛、三羊启泰是用来赞美的。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 09:52 (UTC)[回复]

Okay, I understand what you mean. But if you look closely to the word's definition, it pointed out 下驮 or Geta. The word came into exist because 下驮 splits someone's toes, "jjok + bal" literally means "pieced+feet/toes". And translating jjok+bal as 猪脚 is non-native Korean speakers guesswork, assuming that it should involve with dogs or pigs. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 10:04 (UTC)[回复]

again, it has been adopted by Taiwanese media (see above link)... not my own guesswork--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 10:11 (UTC)[回复]

I'm pretty sure it's not your guesswork. But whether you like it or not, 猪脚 is simply wrong. The reason I keep insisting about this word (both in English and Chinese wiki) is that (1) I'm 100% certain about 下驮 explanation and (2) I'm sure translating jjok-bal to 猪脚 is a reproduction of rumors and Wikipedia isn't a place for spreading rumors. I even saw South Korean tabloid also claimed the same rumor, but be it may Taiwanese or Korean newspaper which made a such mistake, an error is an error. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 10:24 (UTC)[回复]

Up to now, you are the only person insisting it to be a wrong translation. It's your words against the media. Personally, I am not convinced that you are correct.--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 11:04 (UTC)[回复]

Well, that's because I'm probably the only Korean language speaker in this discussion. My source here (and in English wiki) is dictionary definition, and it's not my original research or personal opinion. I could try my best to convince other Wikipedians, but if you're not open-minded it would be difficult to convince you. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 11:45 (UTC)[回复]

In a sense, I'm glad you joined this discussion since it was dormant for a month and I don't know how to change the article without any understanding of Chinese language. I saw your page move from English wiki, since a bot changed the inter-wiki after your move. I am not sure whether you check the discussion page before you move the article. And also I don't know why you deleted your whole talk page, instead of archiving it.

Remember, Wikipedia isn't a democracy. Being the only person insisting a correction doesn't necessarily mean that I'm wrong. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 11:52 (UTC)[回复]

：既然阁下是韩国人，那就好办了，大家就不需靠英文那么转折，请问“쪽발이”这谚文，直译中文是什么？--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 12:56 (UTC)[回复]

I looked it up at Korean-Chinese dictionary, and the matching translation would be 小日本. naver Korean-Chinese dictionary. But 小日本 is a Chinese word, thus IMO writing in alphabet would be best to avoid confusion, i.e.) jjok-bari. In any case, just don't use 猪 or 猪脚: the word in itself does not have a meaning of 猪. Even the literal meaning of 足-bal doesn't have the meaning of 猪. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 22:12 (UTC)[回复]

ref from a jap website, see#335[10]--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 13:57 (UTC)[回复]

Here is the same discussion at Japanese wiki: jp:ノート:チョッパリ#语源などの正确性の问题. 利用者:Alphanis explained exactly same thing in October 2010. --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月28日 (四) 21:57 (UTC)[回复]

坊间见过有人将“쪽발이”音译为“肘巴里”，似乎欠缺了“猪脚”的精髓。。--RiceRice（留言） 2012年6月29日 (五) 00:12 (UTC)[回复]

As long as we avoid using 猪脚, any translation is fine. Please understand that I'm not trying to whitewash the word, but rather I'm trying to fixing an very obvious error. 感谢! --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年6月29日 (五) 00:21 (UTC)[回复]

从上面的讨论可以看出，既然韩语的“Jjokbari”并不是指“猪脚”，目前的条目名称就是带有个人主观意识的命名。为了使条目中性化，应该移回原作者使用的名称“Jjokbari”。—Iokseng（留言） 2012年7月1日 (日) 01:20 (UTC)[回复]

Thank you for your comment,Iokseng! I support the move, and the title should be either "jjokbari" or "肘巴里" depending on Chinese Wiki's foreign language convention, which I'm not familiar with. And if I may point out one more thing, I think we'd better to use alphabet for "チョッパリ（Choppari)", "バンチョッパリ" and "バン" instead of Japanese kana. After all, it's a Korean vocabulary and neither Japanese nor English rendering is accurate. But we cannot assume every reader is familiar with Japanese Katakana (I think). Best, --PeanutbutterjellyTaco（留言） 2012年7月2日 (一) 09:13 (UTC)[回复]

(－)反对- 移动至Jjokbari不妥：为什么不移动至Tchokpari、Choppari、Jjog-Bal-i或Jjog-Ba-ri呢？我宁愿直接把它移动至쪽발이也不愿把它移动至Jjokbari。“Jjokbari”一词明显是英文，因为"쪽"一字是入声，英文中无法区分入声与清爆破音韵尾，才把它读为JJOK，而在Jjok后接爆破音b时，k失去爆破，正好成了入声。汉语中可没有“k在b前失去爆破”的规矩，所以还是写作Jjog-Bal-i（ISO转写）或者直接用쪽발이比较合适。(＋)支持移动至"肘巴里"或"两瓣脚"。--58.83.252.55（留言） 2012年7月4日 (三) 13:41 (UTC)[回复]